[brocksolid]

First time poster here guys, so hopefully there's someone out there that can help me.

Up until August of this year I had taken somewhat of a sabbatical from the FM series, for no reason other than my job just didn't allow me the time needed to play the game fully.

That being said im now back into the game I find the most enjoyable, FM08. Its actually Worldwide soccer manager, as these dang americans I reside near didnt stock FM!

My final save was along similar lines to that of my new Stafford Rangers Save. I had taken East Fife from the Scottish Div 3 to the top of the 1st division in successive years. I had put together a really simple 4-4-2 that worked spectacularly, but with my new save im struggling to re-create it. In my current Stafford save I have played 4 seasons, and now find myself in 10th place of League 2 (coming from BSQ Prem). The budget has been literally zero since I took over, however I have put together a solid bunch of young free transfers, coupled with some excellent loans from my parent club Ipswich.

Building the formation

At the lower levels I try to recruit 2-3 quality forwards (at that level obviously) and basically try getting it to them and let them do their magic. Right now I have Matty West, Loanee from Ipswich, who is a very technical and creative forward, paired with Jeffrey Jack, a pure goal scorer with little frills. Neither are amazing in the air…..I have drafted in Richie Creswell as my big target man if I decide to go that way, but he usually starts on the bench.

My centre mids are good for the level, one defensive and offensive, both have good passing ability and like to get stuck in. My two wide men are basic wingers with decent athleticism, not really got it in their locker to skin someone and drive in a world class cross, but they chip in with a good amount of assists.

My back four is solid enough, two center halves would get a game anywhere in the division, one is a Spanish Loanee from Ipswich and is almost too good for my team! The full backs are consistent performers, but the left back I have is almost to offensive, as I couldn’t get a standard DL for love nor money in either transfer window.

Considering all of this I have opted for a basic 4-4-2. My emphasis is to have 4 midfielders available all the time, so essentially no Classic wide men. I have the full backs moving forward to provide some wide, but I want the forwards to split wide to receive the ball, and in turn use their higher level of quality to wriggle through or behind the back four. The penetration comes from the weak side forward at the back post, along with an attacking mid making a central late run into the box.

What I cant quite get to work is the forwards checking off their marker to receive the ball with time and space. It seems that opposition forwards do so with ease, and my boys, who are better footballers, cant seem to re-create this.

I have my center mids set to often through balls, and more expansive range of passing. I also do this with my full backs, so they play passes to forwards quickly.

With this said you wouldn’t believe the amount of times my center mids get caught in possession.

My other stumbling block is coming up against a 352. Its an old school formation, that you don’t often see these days, but I just get beat up whenever I play against it. I try and stretch a back four, and do so with limited success, but against a back 3 surely this would occur more often?

I guess where I need help guys, is the specifics of the sliders to make this happen? Any advice you can give me would be great.
 Basics (Stafford, Mar 2011).tac (980bytes)
Number of downloads: 13

[Xulu]

I had issues DLing the tactic. Sorry.

Slight confusion. You said you play 4-4-2, but that you do not have classic wide players despite your mentioning of having basic wingers. Are you playing a Diamond or a variant of the Diamond, or are your (A)ML/MR Cutting Inside?

With the front group, a team that relies on Strikers and Fullbacks to provide width over Midfielders should be able to give said width at the expense of lacking an out-ball. If you have great midfield runners you can have them exploit space for days, but you will not usually have a player in place to receive a killer ball in a very dangerous position. Perhaps having the Strikers move less (remaining more central) and having the wide midfielders cover the advanced wide areas will give you the passing and movement options you desire.



Stretching a Back Three seems easy in theory, but only certain Back Threes are easily stretched. A "New World" Back Three is often easily stretched at the benefit of providing amazing attacking power down the flanks, while an "Old World" Back Three asks the wide players to drop back and defend to form a Back Five. Five players is going to be a little harder to stretch than three. Most FM MEs favor the Old World Approach.

To counter said approach, there are two solid options. The first is to match them in the middle. The second is to overlap them down the flanks. Most 4-5-1 variations will allow you to do both. 4-4-2 variations will have to select one method or the other (Diamond or Split Strikers to match in middle, Aggressive Wingers + Fullbacks to overlap flanks).

[brocksolid]

So the formation itself is based around a narrow framework that is a flat 4-4-2. I figured my team’s quality wasn’t really high enough to press the opposition in their half and aggressively possess the ball. So I wanted to soak up pressure a little and expose them out wide, without sitting so deep we just invited the other teams to pump balls into us. I felt my avenue to gain advantage was to create a 2v1 against their full back, (from the striker and an on-coming deeper wide man) with the hope of moving their CB out of position and give my 2nd striker more space to get in front of his mark. Again my wingers are decent, but give the ball away too much when I set them on attacking dribbling.

I see where you’re coming from in terms of having them move less and stay more centrally, but my problem is that I don’t feel the deeper forward ever gets enough space to fully exploit them. The majority of the teams in the league play 3-5-2 or in a 4-4-2 have such a deep lying mid I cant penetrate them.

I guess the easy solution to this is to get better players! But in the current parameters, do you think I can achieve success with a group of players that are top heavy in terms of quality in the middle of the park only? Ive tried the good old CM01/02 4-1-3-2 formation that served me well all those years ago, but I cant seem to get the defensive side of that formation to work for me, and get heavily exposed in the wide areas.

[Xulu]

You like to play fairly deep. Your opponents always have a very deep midfielder. In turn, that means that either their defensive line is deep (close to their goal) or that their MCs are very close to the DCs.

What that leaves both of you with is space. A lot of space. The midfield zone will be most open. Exploit that.

An opposition 3-5-2 will be able to cover this space better than your flat 4-4-2 unless you bring your side midfielders in. When you do that, you neuter your actual advantage of two players down each flank to destroy opposition wingbacks. If you do not do so, you have to play narrow and deep on the counter and risk leaving your forwards isolated.

A flat opposition 4-4-2 will leave you a lot of space in the midfield zone if they have a deep lying MC or two. Your midfielders should have plenty of room to work in that zone for two reasons. First, both of you are playing deep and play is stretched out across the pitch. Second, their midfielders are deeper, meaning you have more space to advance. A Diamond could wreck such an opposition setup; as you will pin the opposition MC and DC pairs deep with your STs and AMC, while you have oceans of space to build play from the back with the other midfielders. Keep your forwards high if you feel like they are not effective at dropping deep. The players who will move into the zone will be midfielders. Since you are playing 4-4-2 yourself make sure one is staying back and providing cover, or at the very least not being quite as aggressive as the others.

[brocksolid]

Thanks Xulu

A lot of my confusion is perhaps in how the sliders make all of this happen. I feel like any change I make in a game only makes things worse. I try and change individual sliders, rather than universal tactics, would you advise at the lower levels I keep things more universal?

I understand that the deeper/higher roles in midfield may need more individual tweaking, but overall do you think it makes more sense.

Also just wanted to know your thoughts on Direct passing. I know its a little off topic here, but in relation to my tactic I felt short passing was better for everyone except my best passers, who have direct, as I feel direct passes are more harder to complete? I read a lot on the forums where people say the opposite, do you have any opinion on this? I dont see Direct passing as lumping it forward, I see it more as that cutting pass into behind a full back, perhaps im looking at it the wrong way?

[Xulu]

I apologize about my inability to look at the sliders.

Different people have different approaches. I know people who play one tactic and make minor tweaks to it and they have great success. I know people who endlessly tinker and play multiple tactics and they have great success. Ultimately, that choice is up to you. Personally I play one base tactic for each team (and most of them end up looking fairly similar; I have a few old posts here which detail some of my prior thoughts on the matter). I might have a secondary tactic, but usually I use that in special situations only.

As a good example, I had a diddle in the MLS a bit ago and played a Controlling 4-4-1-1 with Los Angeles. I used that tactic in every game - the shouts and different player styles were my adjustments - until I lost 4 of my 6 fullbacks to injury. Because I had three fixtures a week for three weeks (CONCACAF CL, MLS League, US Cup), I could not play my system. As I had clinched qualification to the MLS Playoffs and CCL Knockout rounds, I used a Defensive 3-6-1 and just tried to kill the fixtures off with "Take A Breather" and other "Shut Up Shop" stalling tactics. Most of the time though, I play one base tactic (in that save the 4-4-1-1) with some set instructions and use the shouts to get the changes I need. That works for me. You may find that something else entirely works for you.



Direct passing does not mean lumping it forward. Direct passing just means moving vertically up the pitch faster. Imagine there are two targets for your MCd to pass to. The first is his partner MCa. The second is one of the STs. With direct passing the MCd will usually favor the ST, all things being equal. It is not always preferred for the MCd to pass to the ST over the MCa, but that pass will get more consideration. One of the admins here (millie) wrote a nice piece awhile ago detailing a lower league match. One of the striking conclusions was that the players misplaced short passes to a large degree. If teams wanted to keep any sense of tempo, they had to play more direct. That example is perhaps a bit extreme for our purposes (and I think you are a few rungs higher), but some of the concepts still hold water here. Direct passing means fewer opportunities for a missed pass assuming you connect on the first one. However, your overall pass completion percentage might be a bit lower because it is harder to control the longer passes.

If you play a diamond, short passing will work through the bands and out wide. Direct passing will sometimes skip a band and focus a little more in the middle. If you play flat, short passing will work back and forth between the bands and require an MC and ST to shuttle back and forth between the two. Direct passing will look to often hit the Wingers and the STs as soon as possible, relying on them to create and score.

[brocksolid]

Cheers Xulu

Im going to have a little re-think of my tactic and test it out some more before I carry on with the save. As you are aware the avenues to score a goal at the lower levels are limited, so I really need to focus on what works best for the team.

Ive had it click in previous saves, fortunately that time however it worked fairly quickly! This time around I just seem to be mish-mashing through League 1 hoping that I do enough to win points. I think next season with a stronger squad I can get promotion, I just need to keep a little more consistency in what I'm doing.

[brocksolid]

Xulu

Had a couple of days to play around with the new tactic. Had 5 games left in the season, and was very comfortable in 8th position but too far from promotion, so decided to play around a little.

I have to say im still confused as to how things are going as I create more than I finish, which is frustrating but encouraging, however I could accept a draw or a close loss, if the goals im losing arent absolutely hurrendous.

In 5 games i literally lost 3 goals that every FM'er hates. Full back plays some random pass across the box, forward nips in and scores a tap in. Have absolutely no-idea why this is happening, as I have full back's passing on direct, and their mentality on attacking? My midfielders also have this horrible habit of opening up to play a pass under pressure, turning back into pressure and losing the ball. From their the opposition seems to buzz through me and score.

While we are creating good chances from forward play, it seems I just cant get the settings right to keep the ball. I played against a team in 21st place, and they out possessed me from start to finish? Whenever I read the forums I try to emulate how they set up to play possession and I just cant get it to work?

1. Any advice on how to get a balance between forward play and keeping decent possession in tight areas?
2. How the hell do I stop my full backs basically setting the other team up for a goal?
3. Is their any correlation between mentality and passing style when trying to keep the ball. Does defensive mindset affect the type of pass the player makes?

[Xulu]

A note on possession: sometimes you do get out-possessed. Mantralux made a good Arsenal database for FM11 and I gave it a go in a save. Even with the extreme focus on keeping possession, the extra stats to boost possession, and the nature of Arsenal in general as a dominant possession team compared to the rest of the EPL, there were matches where I still had less than 50% possession - even against relegation fodder. Usually these matches come on the road, and often I have a youngster or a less skilled player in a certain position. Still, there were times that even I, as a souped-up Arsenal, was out-possessed by a West Brom or Bolton even with the Retain Possession shouts.


1) That is not an easy thing to do for anyone. You have to keep through balls and movement through channels but at the same time you have to have the options to pass and look for the best solution. I think a lot of that will depend on your team and their abilities.

2) Decisions. That is probably where your issue lies, and that is usually not something that you can change overnight. Perhaps encouraging dribbling would be useful.

3) If you do not edit the sliders, mentality does impact passing range to an extent. "Defensive" players will usually want to play very direct in the back and short up front. "Attacking" players will usually prefer mixed at the back and direct further up.

[Contex]

Interesting discussion, especially about the difficulty of keeping possession. There's a sort of fetish out there of making your Blackpool play like Barcelona, or turning an Everton into Arsenal at their flying best. While not impossible, it requires a certain level of cooperation from the opposition. When you're 3-0 up against a mid-table side, it's one thing, but I find a lot of Premiership teams which lack the technical ability to compete will often use extreme closing down and long balls to the wings, basically forcing you to fight fire with fire.

It's the classic case of "can he do it on a wet afternoon at Britania" - flair player gets tackled hard, and 2 out of 3 times he'll get a foul, and the other time it will be a long diagonal ball to the sprinting hellbent winger who then puts an early cross/through ball to the equally hellbent striker who will shoot, straight at the keeper, but then blast the rebound.

I had become lazy and complacent in my games and had been automatically high closing down and showing onto weaker foot virtually all opposition wingers. This often resulted in things getting sloppy, and the opposition exploiting the chaos to either spoil my shape, or have very efficient conterattacks.

For possession, narrow works best in the premiership unless you have a highly technical squad and are willing to sacrifice scoring goals between November and February. Like Arsenal in real life, extreme possession based teams have beautiful Septembers and heartbreaking winters. With my Tottenham squad, I had Modric (dictates tempo) as a playmaker partnering Parker (plays short simple passes PPM), and the strength of my squad ensured I was able to keep possession playing relatively quick tempo. Most importantly, this resulted in breaking down the opposition and scoring goals.

I get on average 55-60% possession throughout a season by switching between a direct, wide, uptempo style which includes one proper winger and at least two playmaker types (usually an advanced playmaker and a deep lying one). I tend to use short passing, fairly low creative freedom, and focus on winning possession from the front and retaining it in midfield. Sometimes, I'd get "out possessed", but this is part and parcel of the game.

What often kills the possession game is opposing defenders playing short passes to each other then hitting incisive long balls - usually futile against competent sides, but those possession stats can be unnerving. Within the first 20 minutes of a match, it's often easy to see who should be closed down and shown to weaker foot. Also, paying attention to your own defensive line vis-a-vis the opposition is important. In previous versions, it was pretty mechanical - weak team = deep line, favorite/strong team = high. In this version, I find it a bit more dynamic, and it's very important - if not for results at least for creating cohesive tactics.

I can't stress enough the importance of the economy of opposition instructions. Focusing on two or three particular threats ensures that your team can dictate the tempo of the game and set the tone.

Finally, the width / tempo equilibrium is very important. Barcelona, for example, often play very wide, but with short passing and plenty of movement, but they also often go very narrow, depending on opposition pressing. In FM, it's difficult to do this, especially as most of us don't have the players with the same level of technical and mental attributes. Personally I find that often, when I'm leading and better than my opponent, I get good results by playing narrow, quick, and exploiting the flanks - this ensures a good deal of possession and safe passes, while also giving plenty of opportunity for killer balls once an opening appears. However, doing this against, say, Ferguson's Man United would be disasterous as your team would ripped apart by direct passes and high closing down.

In last year's version, I had a good deal of success playing possession football in Seria A, with Udinese - a decent but not top side. Generally, Italian teams play more compact football and this creates better conditions for that particular style.

[brocksolid]

Some what unrelated here but wanted to throw it out to see if anyone had an opinion.

I have tried using the FM "Set position styles" for the 1st time ever, eg, The wing back or target striker, settings for players. Prior to this I havent really used them. Has anyone saw a major benefit in using these?